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Mike Friedman

Sometimes feminism goes too far...

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(And I would argue that this is not a situation that true feminists would even care about.)

 

This is ridiculous.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/03/entertainment/x-men-apocalypse-jennifer-lawrence-strangled-fox-apologizes/index.html

 

It's a scene in the movie. So what are they supposed to do? Not let any harm come to any of the female characters in the movie? 

 

It's a fictional story in a fictional universe. 

 

There has been similar backlash against George RR Martin for his depiction of women in the Game of Thrones books. They ignore that bad things happen to everyone in his books, men and women, and they also ignore all the powerful and strong female characters he has created.

 

People are just itching to be offended about something... anything.

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SEMrush

People are just itching to be offended about something... anything.

 

 

^^^Right there!

 

PC is wearing on me, quickly!  The things that should really be addressed are being muddied by ridiculous things like the above.  Maybe Mystic should have had a safe zone?

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In bad taste, yes, but knocking women, pretty silly.

 

They can't get rid of one of the main characters anyway, That is what extras are for.

 

:P

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Overly PC? Sure.

 

But, it is tough to criticize people's visceral reaction to the imagery of a woman (even a blue one) being abused, and selling it as popcorn entertainment.

 

I think the studio could have extracted themselves from this without the wimpy apology, simply by acknowledging that this image was not the best one to use in their marketing campaign and changing to one that better represents the feelings they want to inspire in the moviegoing public. 

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Sometimes feminism goes too far, Mike? I'd say it goes too far more often than not nowadays. The movement has been hijacked by all the armchair social justice warriors pining for some deluded sense of equality and are giving the true feminist plight a seriously bad rep. It's gone so far that I barely know what the core ideals are for feminists, and that's not the movement's fault, but the ones using it for their own ends.

The X-Men billboard ad controversy is just so stupid that I dont want to even comment on it.

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Sometimes feminism goes too far, Mike? I'd say it goes too far more often than not nowadays. The movement has been hijacked by all the armchair social justice warriors pining for some deluded sense of equality and are giving the true feminist plight a seriously bad rep. It's gone so far that I barely know what the core ideals are for feminists, and that's not the movement's fault, but the ones using it for their own ends.

The X-Men billboard ad controversy is just so stupid that I dont want to even comment on it.

We haven't mastered equality as villains yet so if someone sees a dude strangling a chick with two dead bodies laying beside them - they just assume the dude killed them, too, and go to the aid of the woman.   Sometimes being a chick is kewl like that. :D  :ph34r:   

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We haven't mastered equality as villains yet so if someone sees a dude strangling a chick with two dead bodies laying beside them - they just assume the dude killed them, too, and go to the aid of the woman.   Sometimes being a chick is kewl like that. :D  :ph34r:   

 

 

 

LOL Sal!

 

I've always said that I love my femininity and that's another reason to add to my why.  ;):D

 

 

Terra

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Since Mike brought up feminism, I wondered how many people even knew what feminism actually was. I've heard a lot of incorrect definitions and examples.

 

So I was doing some research on it and found what I believe to be the best description of it I've come across.

 

 

Feminism Isn't a Fad

 

The article explains quite a bit, but this was one of my favorite parts.

 

Feminism is knowing women are inherently as capable as men. Feminism does not claim that women are better, and not even the same as men. That would be to defy physics and logic. Woman is man’s equal and opposite counterpart, anatomically and physiologically different. A woman must work much harder to build the same muscle mass as a man, but a man can never carry a child. Each gender provides what the other lacks. This doesn’t mean that one sex should be favored over the other, and neither should put the other down. That is inhuman, and we are all humans, obviously. Like love, feminism does not boast or brag, and it is not spiteful. That would go against its definition. Instead, it is a belief that rests quietly within a person. It does not need to be shouted or proclaimed. It simply exists. It does not define you but rather refine you. It isn’t about power, but about empowerment.

 

 

 

 

Terra

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Feminism is knowing women are inherently as capable as men. Feminism does not claim that women are better, and not even the same as men. That would be to defy physics and logic. Woman is man’s equal and opposite counterpart, anatomically and physiologically different. A woman must work much harder to build the same muscle mass as a man, but a man can never carry a child. Each gender provides what the other lacks. This doesn’t mean that one sex should be favored over the other, and neither should put the other down. That is inhuman, and we are all humans, obviously. Like love, feminism does not boast or brag, and it is not spiteful. That would go against its definition. Instead, it is a belief that rests quietly within a person. It does not need to be shouted or proclaimed. It simply exists. It does not define you but rather refine you. It isn’t about power, but about empowerment.

 

I spent most of my developmental years in what could very well be argued to be a hippy commune, and this is actually the very environment I grew up in. I never had an opportunity to be a racist, sexist or anything-ist, without being challenged and proven to be an idiot by empowered individuals in those very groups showing their utter sameness (or, often, superiority) in everything that mattered. 

 

Having said that, political correctness is all about perception. And the perception that a woman being strangled is an acceptable way to promote light summer entertainment via mass media is a bit tone deaf. I defend their right to do it, but that doesn't mean they aren't idiots for making that choice. And I defend the right of "feminists" to make their opinions heard, but that doesn't mean that their outrage wouldn't be better directed toward the very real possibility that Donald Trump may be the next president.

 

I honestly don't see the big deal over this. The studio made a stupid choice, their customers gave them negative feedback, and the studio course corrected.

 

Just as it should be. The free market worked.

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I spent most of my developmental years in what could very well be argued to be a hippy commune, and this is actually the very environment I grew up in. I never had an opportunity to be a racist, sexist or anything-ist, without being challenged and proven to be an idiot by empowered individuals in those very groups showing their utter sameness (or, often, superiority) in everything that mattered. 

 

Having said that, political correctness is all about perception. And the perception that a woman being strangled is an acceptable way to promote light summer entertainment via mass media is a bit tone deaf. I defend their right to do it, but that doesn't mean they aren't idiots for making that choice. And I defend the right of "feminists" to make their opinions heard, but that doesn't mean that their outrage wouldn't be better directed toward the very real possibility that Donald Trump may be the next president.

 

I honestly don't see the big deal over this. The studio made a stupid choice, their customers gave them negative feedback, and the studio course corrected.

 

Just as it should be. The free market worked.

 

Jack: Honest question. Mystique is a shape-changer. Would it have been okay if she were in the form of a man? Not to mention she's a super-powered individual more than capable of handling herself against super-powered men and women and she constantly puts herself in harm's way. 

 

The issue here is the image is taken completely out of context of the characters involved. 

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I spent most of my developmental years in what could very well be argued to be a hippy commune, and this is actually the very environment I grew up in. I never had an opportunity to be a racist, sexist or anything-ist, without being challenged and proven to be an idiot by empowered individuals in those very groups showing their utter sameness (or, often, superiority) in everything that mattered. 

 

 

 

 

Are you saying that you grew up in a commune who "preached" one thing, but lived another? Or in other words, a bunch of hypocrites? If so, that is so sad, but it doesn't make what the paragraph states, wrong. It's completely right. All it is saying is that neither man nor woman is better than the other, but equal partners with different attributes, strengths and purposes that when put together, compliment one another. What one lacks in some arenas, the other possesses, balancing out one another.

 

Nature at its finest.  ;)

 

 

Terra

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Jack: Honest question. Mystique is a shape-changer. Would it have been okay if she were in the form of a man? Not to mention she's a super-powered individual more than capable of handling herself against super-powered men and women and she constantly puts herself in harm's way. 

 

The issue here is the image is taken completely out of context of the characters involved. 

 

The honest answer is that the characters are irrelevant. The imagery of a woman being abused plays into thousands of years of human history where women have been brutalized and victimized in too many ways to count. If you were the producer of this film, is that really the association you want your potential customers to make? And are the emotions dredged up by this image the ones you want associated with your product?

 

(On a side note, I can certainly see legit situations where that is exactly the imagery you want, and those are exactly the emotions you want to inspire. Just not here.)

 

I would much rather let the story do its job and build up to a moment like this, when context and momentum strip away the likelihood of any mixed message.

 

And personally, I think would be a silly image to use on billboards even if the roles were reversed, but at least that would not have the baggage of many of the worst moments of human history piled on top of it.

 

 

Are you saying that you grew up in a commune who "preached" one thing, but lived another? Or in other words, a bunch of hypocrites? If so, that is so sad, but it doesn't make what the paragraph states, wrong. It's completely right. All it is saying is that neither man nor woman is better than the other, but equal partners with different attributes, strengths and purposes that when put together, compliment one another. What one lacks in some arenas, the other possesses, balancing out one another.

 

Nature at its finest.  ;)

 

 

Terra

 

No, I don't think I was saying that at all. I simply grew up in an environment that was empowering to all types regardless of gender, race, political or sexual preferences. And I am grateful that I did, because I like the perspective it gave me.

 

Like now, with this movie marketing. I don't feel outrage when I see it, I feel empathy for women who have been abused and were confronted with that image every day, on the way to work or wherever. 

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The honest answer is that the characters are irrelevant. The imagery of a woman being abused plays into thousands of years of human history where women have been brutalized and victimized in too many ways to count. If you were the producer of this film, is that really the association you want your potential customers to make? And are the emotions dredged up by this image the ones you want associated with your product?

 

(On a side note, I can certainly see legit situations where that is exactly the imagery you want, and those are exactly the emotions you want to inspire. Just not here.)

 

I would much rather let the story do its job and build up to a moment like this, when context and momentum strip away the likelihood of any mixed message.

 

And personally, I think would be a silly image to use on billboards even if the roles were reversed, but at least that would not have the baggage of many of the worst moments of human history piled on top of it.

 

 

 

No, I don't think I was saying that at all. I simply grew up in an environment that was empowering to all types regardless of gender, race, political or sexual preferences. And I am grateful that I did, because I like the perspective it gave me.

 

Like now, with this movie marketing. I don't feel outrage when I see it, I feel empathy for women who have been abused and were confronted with that image every day, on the way to work or wherever. 

 

 

I am so glad to hear that, Jack. I obviously misinterpreted what you were saying.  :blush:

 

What you just answered now, sounds more like the Jack that I have come to know and  :wub:

 

 

Terra

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The honest answer is that the characters are irrelevant. The imagery of a woman being abused plays into thousands of years of human history where women have been brutalized and victimized in too many ways to count. If you were the producer of this film, is that really the association you want your potential customers to make? And are the emotions dredged up by this image the ones you want associated with your product?

 

(On a side note, I can certainly see legit situations where that is exactly the imagery you want, and those are exactly the emotions you want to inspire. Just not here.)

 

I would much rather let the story do its job and build up to a moment like this, when context and momentum strip away the likelihood of any mixed message.

 

And personally, I think would be a silly image to use on billboards even if the roles were reversed, but at least that would not have the baggage of many of the worst moments of human history piled on top of it.

 

 

But the characters are relevant. This is not an image of a random female being assaulted by a random male. These are two known entities. This is not imagery of domestic violence. This is imagery of a warrior versus another warrior - one of which just happens to be female (and that can even be argued based on Mystique's abilities). 

 

First, feminists asked for more strong female roles; to no longer be the object the male lead has to save. The X-Men franchise is structured around several strong female leads. They battle against men instead of cowering from them. (If anything, the franchise deserves credit for such.) Now, feminists decry that women can't be seen losing.

 

This is an issue of context and a great opportunity for parents to teach children how important it is to see the whole picture before making accusations and wild assumptions. 

 

I don't know about you, but if I were Apocalypse and I had to fight this...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTL_kKSe8yQ

 

...I'd choke her, too. 

 

You mentioned focusing attention on Trump. This is precisely the kind of political correctness that helped create Trump. Excessive, misplaced political correctness has created an angry groundswell of voters who feel undermined and unsupported. 

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Dan, while I am happy to concede your point for x-men fans, I would argue that many, many more people have no idea who or what these characters are, and just see a woman being choked by a bully. A weirdly hot, blue woman, but a woman nonetheless who is now yet another victim.
 
When I said the characters are irrelevant, I was speaking about the broader context of how they would be perceived by the population as a whole.
 
And that is a great point about Trump's origin story. I think I have the perfect solution...

 

 

 

trump-xmen.png

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Dan, while I am happy to concede your point for x-men fans, I would argue that many, many more people have no idea who or what these characters are, and just see a woman being choked by a bully. A weirdly hot, blue woman, but a woman nonetheless who is now yet another victim.

 

When I said the characters are irrelevant, I was speaking about the broader context of how they would be perceived by the population as a whole.

 

And that is a great point about Trump's origin story. I think I have the perfect solution...

 

 

 

trump-xmen.png

 

I think by now most people are aware of the X-Men characters, but your point about a lack of awareness helps prove my point about context. People should understand the context before flying off at the handle. When they don't, it makes their entire stance ring hollow. Every time a group cries wolf it lessens the strength of their argument. 

 

Now, if the goal of the image was to make Apocalypse look like a powerful villain, yes, the studio picked the wrong victim. Wolverine would have been better, but so would have Storm or Jean Grey based on the strength of their powers. Picking the wrong victim to accomplish this doesn't make the image wrong, it just weakens the message. If the studio was trying to make Apocalypse look sinister because he is beating up a woman, then, yes, this was the wrong way to establish that. And they should've put him in a white tank top. (See how sensitive I'm being? I lessened the impact of my statement by not saying "wifebeater".)

 

(I like the Trump image, but you should've made Mystique's skin brown...)

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But the characters are relevant. This is not an image of a random female being assaulted by a random male. These are two known entities. This is not imagery of domestic violence. This is imagery of a warrior versus another warrior - one of which just happens to be female (and that can even be argued based on Mystique's abilities). 

 

First, feminists asked for more strong female roles; to no longer be the object the male lead has to save. The X-Men franchise is structured around several strong female leads. They battle against men instead of cowering from them. (If anything, the franchise deserves credit for such.) Now, feminists decry that women can't be seen losing.

 

This is an issue of context and a great opportunity for parents to teach children how important it is to see the whole picture before making accusations and wild assumptions. 

 

I don't know about you, but if I were Apocalypse and I had to fight this...

 

 

 

 

I hate to say it -- but that's exactly where all this damned confusion is coming from.  Not every knows who the hell these characters are.  I don't. I see a guy choking a woman - and inferred that this was a superhero, or sci-fi type movie where men and women duke it out for some reason.  It's 2016 and this isn't a Muslim country -- I was able to figure it out just fine, yet I still don't know who these two characters are.  

 

Women don't hate him, Jack. Open your eyes. That's completely idiotic. Women don't hate Trump -- unless they're democrat voters.  Trump has been in the public eye for decades -- and the first time he was accused of berating women was when he decided to run against democrats.   

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I'm not. Serious.

 

 

Terra

 

But I think you're intelligent enough to take from the image that these aren't exactly two everyday, run-of-the-mill individuals. I also think you've been around long enough to at least understand the basic concept of a superhero. 

 

 

Here Sal demonstrates how to use context to come to a conclusion:

I hate to say it -- but that's exactly where all this damned confusion is coming from.  Not every knows who the hell these characters are.  I don't. I see a guy choking a woman - and inferred that this was a superhero, or sci-fi type movie where men and women duke it out for some reason.  It's 2016 and this isn't a Muslim country -- I was able to figure it out just fine, yet I still don't know who these two characters are.  

 

 

This ^^^ should have been the end of the national discussion. 

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lol, it wasn't my intention to start a Trump thread.

 

Honestly.

 

But back on point, I never made the argument that this image was inherently bad, just confusing out of context and tone deaf to the consequences of that.

 

I think they did the right thing by backing off. Not because they were cowed into it by militant feminists, but because they recognized that it was the wrong way to market this movie to the masses.

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