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Mike Friedman

Sometimes feminism goes too far...

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SEMrush

I think they did the right thing by backing off. Not because they were cowed into it by militant feminists, but because they recognized that it was the wrong way to market this movie to the masses.

 

This is the reason why virtually all American movies are crap

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lol, it wasn't my intention to start a Trump thread.

 

Honestly.

 

But back on point, I never made the argument that this image was inherently bad, just confusing out of context and tone deaf to the consequences of that.

 

I think they did the right thing by backing off. Not because they were cowed into it by militant feminists, but because they recognized that it was the wrong way to market this movie to the masses.

 

I'm going to end my rant here: the image is tone deaf when wrenched from context. The context of the image is there: this is a superhero movie and this is a bad guy. To take anything more from it requires all but the most naive to knowingly take the image out of context. This issue is a falsehood. 

 

The studio changed the image purely out of economic desire. I'm cool with that. I'm simply not cool with the intellectual dishonesty of the parties who made this an issue in the first place. 

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Women don't hate him, Jack. Open your eyes. That's completely idiotic. Women don't hate Trump -- unless they're democrat voters.  Trump has been in the public eye for decades -- and the first time he was accused of berating women was when he decided to run against democrats.   

 

And why wouldn't they when they have a woman they want to win not only the party's nomination, but to be up against Trump as the republican's rep.

 

They of course want the talk sidetracked away from their woman because she's a lyin,' cheatin', criminal and those characteristics don't win elections even if she did get a facelift.

 

But I think you're intelligent enough to take from the image that these aren't exactly two everyday, run-of-the-mill individuals. I also think you've been around long enough to at least understand the basic concept of a superhero. 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, I absolutely do, I wasn't stating otherwise.  Honestly that is the first time I saw the image in question, but I would have either chalked it up to superheroes or aliens or perhaps aliens with superpowers. 

 

 

Terra

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But the characters are relevant. This is not an image of a random female being assaulted by a random male. These are two known entities. This is not imagery of domestic violence. This is imagery of a warrior versus another warrior - one of which just happens to be female (and that can even be argued based on Mystique's abilities). 

 

Do you really expect that an average moviegoer understands who these characters are, and what they stand for? Even if there's perfectly good explanation in the lore of this particular fantasy universe it's not apparent to most people. People don't know everything about a random comic book or some other fairytale. Heck, I'm a geek and all I can do is to guess which comic book universe these characters belong to.

 

I agree with Jack G's point of view. That's why people took offense. It's also very pragmatic for the studio to simply alter their marketing. They're just doing what's best for them and their bottom line. 

First, feminists asked for more strong female roles; to no longer be the object the male lead has to save. The X-Men franchise is structured around several strong female leads. They battle against men instead of cowering from them. (If anything, the franchise deserves credit for such.) Now, feminists decry that women can't be seen losing.

 

"Feminists" are not really any single group or even homogenous in their opinions. They seem to disagree on more things that they agree on. It's pretty hard to see the point in these generalizations. Sure, some of them probably care about movies because they may shape how we view the world.

 

However, it's a good idea to try to please everyone as much as you can when it comes to huge movie franchises. You don't have to be a feminist to enjoy a "strong independent woman" character. I see this as a good business decision rather than giving in to some ideology.

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 and the first time he was accused of berating women was when he decided to run against democrats.   

 

That's how your politics seems to work, but if he didn't want these accusations leveled against him maybe he should've not been, you know, berating women? 

 

I'm from the other side of the world, and even I know what this guy has actually said. The comments are creepy, sexist, racist and delusional. 

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Do you really expect that an average moviegoer understands who these characters are, and what they stand for? Even if there's perfectly good explanation in the lore of this particular fantasy universe it's not apparent to most people. People don't know everything about a random comic book or some other fairytale. Heck, I'm a geek and all I can do is to guess which comic book universe these characters belong to.

 

I agree with Jack G's point of view. That's why people took offense. It's also very pragmatic for the studio to simply alter their marketing. They're just doing what's best for them and their bottom line. 

 

I expect the average moviegoer to either understand who the characters are or find out before they get all up in arms about something. And with roughly $4.2 BILLION in world-wide receipts for the franchise, I think it's safe to say that the public is aware of these characters, at least enough to understand the basic concept that a woman might just be as powerful as a man. http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/franchise/X-Men#tab=summary

 

A large assumption was made and the assumption is incorrect, at best; disputable at worst. Additionally, I'm pretty sure everyone, yes, everyone, is aware of the basic tenets of the superhero genre. Men and women are more equal in this genre (along with Sci-Fi and Fantasty) than any other genre. To automatically assume that a female superhero is a "victim" is ridiculous. To paint the average movie goer as some kind of drooling rube is, honestly, insulting to the American public. 

 

 

I will retract my usage of "feminists" - I was using the parlance of the thread - and replace it with "these idiots who complained about this without even remotely understanding what they were talking about".

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"Feminists" are not really any single group or even homogenous in their opinions. They seem to disagree on more things that they agree on. It's pretty hard to see the point in these generalizations. Sure, some of them probably care about movies because they may shape how we view the world.

 

 

 

 

That's it in a nutshell. What feminism is to these outspoken loudmouths is a bandwagon to jump on in order to have something in which they can biotch about without doing their proper homework.

 

I think it just makes them look ignorant and well, like biotches, lol!

 

 

Terra

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Dan, I think we are really having two different conversations here.

 

Obviously, this is sci-fi. I doubt anyone looks at this and is confused about that.

 

However, the connotations of the imagery are stark, and for a sizable chunk of the female population, they are going to be negative. Very, very negative. Not necessarily because they are feminists, but because they have been raped, beaten or otherwise victimized by a physically dominant man. Or, somebody close to them has.

 

At that point, you are alienating a large part of your potential market before you ever had the chance to warm them up to what is obviously an intense and important scene in the movie.

 

I don't see this as a social problem, but a marketing one. The 'feminists' who did complain had a good point, and it had little to do with political correctness.

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I expect the average moviegoer to either understand who the characters are or find out before they get all up in arms about something. And with roughly $4.2 BILLION in world-wide receipts for the franchise, I think it's safe to say that the public is aware of these characters, at least enough to understand the basic concept that a woman might just be as powerful as a man. http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/franchise/X-Men#tab=summary

 

A large assumption was made and the assumption is incorrect, at best; disputable at worst. Additionally, I'm pretty sure everyone, yes, everyone, is aware of the basic tenets of the superhero genre. Men and women are more equal in this genre (along with Sci-Fi and Fantasty) than any other genre. To automatically assume that a female superhero is a "victim" is ridiculous. To paint the average movie goer as some kind of drooling rube is, honestly, insulting to the American public. 

 

 

I will retract my usage of "feminists" - I was using the parlance of the thread - and replace it with "these idiots who complained about this without even remotely understanding what they were talking about".

I don't even like American comics or X-men and I know who Mystique is.

 

How uneducated and uncultivated can these people be...?

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I expect the average moviegoer to either understand who the characters are or find out before they get all up in arms about something. 

 

Why would you expect that? 

 

Ads are a medium that plays with associations and emotions. This is the reaction that this particular ad got in some people. Do you really expect them to step back, study the lore and narrative of some make-believe universe, and then rationalize away their initial reaction to a violent image that they saw? Perhaps even explain that to their children? I simply don't understand why you'd expect this.

 

I would not have that kind of reaction, and probably more than half of my circle of friends would get the context to some extend at least. However, I can't expect that everyone in my home country has these same experiences and interests.

 

These movies are far beyond the point that they're just marketed to a group of fans. They need to cater to much larger audience than a bunch of comic book fans or even the fans of the movie franchise. 

 

 

A large assumption was made and the assumption is incorrect, at best, disputable at worst. Additionally, I'm pretty sure everyone, yes, everyone, is aware of the basic tenets of the superhero genre. Men and women are more equal in this genre (along with Sci-Fi and Fantasty) than any other genre. To automatically assume that a female superhero is a "victim" is ridiculous. To paint the average movie goer as some kind of drooling rube is, honestly, insulting to the American public. 

 

I have pretty low expectations for my fellow countrymen. I'm struggling to find a nice way talk about the Average Joe in the US, bless his heart. 

 

Sorry, I don't see the argument here either. Most people don't read sci-fi, and many comic book readers don't recognize the deeper themes if there are any. I agree that most people in the age group 15-55 probably have seen a superhero movie, but they've been a mixed bag. For example, some are very campy and silly, and it's not uncommon for them to have all-male lead characters.

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Dan, I think we are really having two different conversations here.

 

Obviously, this is sci-fi. I doubt anyone looks at this and is confused about that.

 

However, the connotations of the imagery are stark, and for a sizable chunk of the female population, they are going to be negative. Very, very negative. Not necessarily because they are feminists, but because they have been raped, beaten or otherwise victimized by a physically dominant man. Or, somebody close to them has.

 

At that point, you are alienating a large part of your potential market before you ever had the chance to warm them up to what is obviously an intense and important scene in the movie.

 

I don't see this as a social problem, but a marketing one. The 'feminists' who did complain had a good point, and it had little to do with political correctness.

 

This kind of imagery is in nearly every action movie that contains a female character. Do we know have to retract the King Kong movie posters that depict Fay Wray being manhandled by a giant ape? Nope, we're going to disagree on this one. 

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I guess you have to be in on the characters to be in on the deal, an' the best way to be in on the characters is to go see the movie.

 

Prolly they shoulda stuck up the usual COME SEE SUPERHEROES image — all muscles flexin' an' cleavages scoopin'.

 

Thing about strangulation is, it is a person thing.

 

No superpowers are required, an' anyone can try it on anyone.

 

In the movie, in context, we appreciate it is fantasy violence (same as Black Widow kickin man butt, ifya wanna get fem-specific), an' all the PG-13 moviegoers can collude in the subtleties of this imagry.

 

But the streets are for evryone, an' I figure they coulda chose an image more suitable for evryone to gaze upon, especially those uninitiated into the ways of azure shapechangers who mighta jus' seen what it is possible for people to do with their hands.

 

Personally, I am not offended, but I do think it was kinda stoopid.

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Why would you expect that? 

 

Ads are a medium that plays with associations and emotions. This is the reaction that this particular ad got in some people. Do you really expect them to step back, study the lore and narrative of some make-believe universe, and then rationalize away their initial reaction to a violent image that they saw? Perhaps even explain that to their children? I simply don't understand why you'd expect this.

 

[because that's what a mature person does. They either understand a situation or come to understand a situation before arguing a vapid point. Relying on immediate emotional response is a great way to never really learn or understand anything.]

 

I would not have that kind of reaction, and probably more than half of my circle of friends would get the context to some extend at least. However, I can't expect that everyone in my home country has these same experiences and interests.

 

These movies are far beyond the point that they're just marketed to a group of fans. They need to cater to much larger audience than a bunch of comic book fans or even the fans of the movie franchise. 

 

[Precisely. Everyone is aware of the basic tenets. Everyone is aware that a female can be just as powerful as a male.]

 

 

I have pretty low expectations for my fellow countrymen. I'm struggling to find a nice way talk about the Average Joe in the US, bless his heart. 

 

Sorry, I don't see the argument here either. Most people don't read sci-fi, and many comic book readers don't recognize the deeper themes if there are any. I agree that most people in the age group 15-55 probably have seen a superhero movie, but they've been a mixed bag. For example, some are very campy and silly, and it's not uncommon for them to have all-male lead characters.

 

[This is a difference of opinion. How people can say they aren't aware of superhero themes is like saying they aren't aware of the thematic structures of a Western or a romantic comedy. This makes no sense to me.]

 

My responses in bold. 

 

I see Jack's point, but simply disagree with his conclusion. We all have sensitivities to things. To censor everything that people are sensitive to just isn't possible. 

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That's how your politics seems to work, but if he didn't want these accusations leveled against him maybe he should've not been, you know, berating women? 

 

I'm from the other side of the world, and even I know what this guy has actually said. The comments are creepy, sexist, racist and delusional. 

No worse than what he says about Men that are asshats.  He has cut the line a few times........who hasn't.  I've raved about men being absolute dipsticks, too, a few times......but I don't hate men. I don't find them all to be dipsticks -- but if I were running for office, I'm sure the opposing party would grab any of those statements and shine a light on them.  What should be of the most importance is the women that worked for Trump say he's not a boss - he's a leader and was always fair to them.  If the women that worked for him like him.......I think that says more than anything anyone else has to say. 

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The only marketing message they are pushing is

 

"We are the American movie industry. We will kowtow to the Social Justice Warriors and people who don't even watch our films.You suspected it all along: marketers and not writers drive our creative processes.Well now we're pretty much confirming it! We are also deseperate. "

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/06/hollywood-has-a-huge-millennial-problem/486209/?utm_source=atlfb

 

Yeah yeah great and smart marketers they are. Too bad their movies suck ponies.

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If the women that worked for him like him.......I think that says more than anything anyone else has to say.

Women who have worked for him are like his ex wives. They are paid to keep their mouths shut.

A CNN/ORC poll conducted in March found that 73 percent of women from both parties say they don’t like him, an increase from 59 percent in December. Among Republican women, this number is much lower but still significant: 39 percent said they had a negative view of him.

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Actually, there is a very good reason to have an ad for the movie, where Mystique is getting throttled by the evil Apocalypse.

 

Look at any poster for any movie. Is there an attractive woman on it? Is she showing cleavage? Now, think of every horror movie and science fiction movie ever made...The beautiful girl/woman is threatened by the evil monster.

 

Why isn't Apocalypse chocking one of the male leads in the movie? Because that doesn't feed into our male impulses. It's simply that young males (the target audience primarily) loves looking at beautiful girls. If they look helpless, that feeds into the male need to protect the girl, or dominate the girl. (depending on your make up)

 

Why is Mystique the one being chocked? Because she is easily the most recognized character in the movie, played by the most popular actress.

 

So..."Oh No! This guy is going to kill Mystique! Will she survive? Did he kill her? She's my favorite character! I have to see this!"  

 

In super hero movies, males want to see two things;

Powerful super men doing battle.

Women being threatened...and then rescued.  

 

Of course, in these movies, Mystique is one of the most powerful and strong leads. And she is essentially the leader of the X-Men. So...of course, she is the one getting threatened.  The only thing I see that may raise anyone's eyebrow here, is the fact that she is bring choked. But being choked is visceral...personal....so I see why they put it in the movie. 

 

Do I think women should be shown as victims in movies? Not necessarily. Do I think it helps sell a movie? Yes. In fact,  that's the only reason it's there. Posters with women being threatened...sells movies. Sorry.

 

And for every woman that won't see the movie, because this upsets them...there are several more that see the movie, partially because of the imagery. 

 

If anyone wants to try to change human nature...have at it.

 

 

By the way, it really was a great movie. 

 

And...also by the way, in the comics Mystique isn't Raven..but Raven's mother. And Nightcrawler is Mystique's son. Really. 

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No worse than what he says about Men that are asshats.  He has cut the line a few times........who hasn't.  I've raved about men being absolute dipsticks, too, a few times......but I don't hate men. I don't find them all to be dipsticks -- but if I were running for office, I'm sure the opposing party would grab any of those statements and shine a light on them.  What should be of the most importance is the women that worked for Trump say he's not a boss - he's a leader and was always fair to them.  If the women that worked for him like him.......I think that says more than anything anyone else has to say. 

 

 

I'm going off topic here, but I just have to know.

 

What in the heck is an asshat?  Underwear?  

 

If so, it doesn't quite fit for those who wear g-strings and thongs.  What would you call them? Assflosses? 

 

But then again, how would you know what style of undies someone was wearing unless they shopped at Walmart, were bent over, and their shirt rode up exposing the tops of their thong or g-string sitting higher up on their backs than the waist of their jeans?

 

Or am I overthinking this? LOL!

 

 

Terra

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Women who have worked for him are like his ex wives. They are paid to keep their mouths shut.

 

You don't "get" what corporate media is.  CNN is not a beacon of truth. LMAO.  What a lark. Trump has been in the public eye for a long time -- perhaps you don't understand how exactly many women he's had working for him.  Or maybe you just don't want to.  Or maybe your media sources aren't really feeding you what you think they are.  It just makes me sick to see they're succeeding so damned easily.   

 

Whatever Suzanne.  Just whatever.  

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Because that's what a mature person does. They either understand a situation or come to understand a situation before arguing a vapid point. Relying on immediate emotional response is a great way to never really learn or understand anything.

 

This is a difference of opinion. How people can say they aren't aware of superhero themes is like saying they aren't aware of the thematic structures of a Western or a romantic comedy. This makes no sense to me.

 

The point of the ad is to provoke an emotional response, and the image lacks the context we have. We probably just disagree on this no matter how long we keep this up.

 

Again, I think you're expecting way too much. Some people may know the themes and how these modern stories are generally structured, but most simply don't.

 

Also, women in superhero movies haven't been in the lead roles that much in the past. And it's understandable because the movies follow the comics witch were marketed to much different demographic back in the day. Some of the more notable superhero stories are telling a story of a lone hero who's an outcast because of his powers, or perhaps the fact that his actions would put everyone around him in danger. As you (or someone else) said X-men is quite progressive in this sense. Of course this also stems from the comics themselves - the comic authors eventually started to incorporate social commentary, politics, deeper themes, and strong female characters. I'm not an expert on this, but I think this was a thing to do around 80's and 90's.

 

I've raved about men being absolute dipsticks, too, a few times......but I don't hate men. I don't find them all to be dipsticks -- but if I were running for office, I'm sure the opposing party would grab any of those statements and shine a light on them.  

 

Unfortunately that's the way it works.

 

It's easy enough to explain these kinds of comments, or issue a public apology. Most people have the attention spam of a fruit fly when it comes to news. But in the case of a populist such as Trump you can see how some of them are doubling down on this kind of behavior. It's Trump's shtick. It's what his fans want to see. 

 

 

"We are the American movie industry. We will kowtow to the Social Justice Warriors and people who don't even watch our films.You suspected it all along: marketers and not writers drive our creative processes.Well now we're pretty much confirming it! We are also deseperate. "

 

That term SJW usually just reflects poorly on the person using it. Just saying. It's a shorthand for a silly straw man, that's all. It's perfectly fine to criticize anything and everything, but you should at least make and argument instead of bitching and moaning about some kind of imaginary enemy.

 

Perhaps the guys or gals at the helm actually thought that this was legitimate criticism on their ad? Not the movie itself, not the writing of the movie - simply a poster. You've probably seen how nobody in the industry bats and eye when some fundamentalist "family" group complains about movies. If this was completely ludicrous to the industry execs why on earth would they even react?

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You don't "get" what corporate media is. CNN is not a beacon of truth. LMAO. What a lark. Trump has been in the public eye for a long time -- perhaps you don't understand how exactly many women he's had working for him. Or maybe you just don't want to. Or maybe your media sources aren't really feeding you what you think they are. It just makes me sick to see they're succeeding so damned easily.

Whatever Suzanne. Just whatever.

Polls are polls. You can spout of any "factoids" you like, but organizations actually do poll these questions and it is undeniable fact that Trump has a problem with the women voters, as well as Latino, black, and Muslim. The amount of women he's had working for him are irrelevant. They won't win the women vote for him. When 79% percent of women polled say they don't like him and 39% are from his own party, that's a voting problem for him.

As for this "massive" amount of women who have worked for him, only a few have come out with any opinions at all on him publicly.

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