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Terra

Born Writers VS People Who Write Well

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I recently visited an author's forum I haven't been to in absolutely ages and they were discussing  "born writers".

Some of the authors there think there is a difference between someone who can write well and someone who was born with an innate talent/ability to write, born with a command of language and ease of word usage, creativity, and talent to weave a masterpiece with words, bringing those words to life. They believe it is possible to tell the difference between a born writer and someone who has honed some skills in writing.

Take artists for instance. Some were born with an artistic talent and began drawing at a young age and were able to use techniques taught at universities just by continuing to draw and growing in their talents when they were still children and youths. They just have an innate ability to see something in person or in their mind and replicate it on paper with correct depth perception in how much pressure they put on the writing utensil, for example. There are also artists who liked to draw and had an interest in it, went to university and studied under successful artists and can produce some very good pieces.

Do you think there is a difference? 

Do you think there are "born writers" and people who can write well and that the two can be easily differentiated?

 

Terra

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I taught writing at a Jr College level for awhile.  There is some truth to the fact that there are natural writers. Anyone should be able to learn command of correct grammar, but it takes a little bit of innate talent for writing creatively and with flair. 

On the other hand - a natural writer still needs to have command of the language, so there is a certain amount of education necessary to achieve the status of being a great writer. 

Can you tell the difference?  To a point, yes.  To a point, no. If someone has creativity and no knowledge of grammar, it shows up really quickly.  For instance - there's a lot of fairly decent writers who can make the mistake of a missing referent.  An adequately educated writer will not make that mistake.  If you are educated enough in the right areas yourself, you might be able to tell the difference, but the average person reading that writer won't be able to. Especially if it's published work, because that's edited copy. 

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I think there is a difference, just like there is a difference with artists. Some have art come easily to them, others need years of practice to just be somewhat good at it.

Education plays a part, of course, but some people simply have "a way with words." :)

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56 minutes ago, ShayR said:

I think there is a difference, just like there is a difference with artists. Some have art come easily to them, others need years of practice to just be somewhat good at it.

Education plays a part, of course, but some people simply have "a way with words." :)

I was thinking along the same lines, Shay.

I was thinking about musicians. One musician has an innate ability to play anything they hear by ear. Just by listening, they can replicate any piece of music they hear but can't read a lick of music.  Another musician has always liked music, and can't play a piece by ear but has studied music, knows all of the notes and can play any piece put in front of them. Now take the musician who plays by ear and then is educated in reading music. They sort of have the best of both worlds, but still have that innate ability they were just born with.

This is what I equate to a writer who has a way with words, and is educated in writing skills, story composition, etc. They have the best of both worlds.

What I was wondering about in my head, is if emotion has anything to do with it.

I think a born writer has an innate ability to write because emotion is behind their words and they can weave a story drawing the reader in with every word, transferring the emotion behind the story to the reader.

The same with a musician who plays by ear. They can cause an audience to weep just by their playing, also transferring the emotion to the listener.

I'm wondering this because I have read pieces that were correct in grammar and every rule of the english language, but find them dull at best. And have also listened to musical pieces that were flawless, but also not "moving."

I'm not saying that someone who writes well can't accomplish this or a musician who can't play by ear can't accomplish this, just that it just seems to come more naturally to the "born with it" person and they can produce their "moving" work with much less effort. Even if they haven't "been schooled" in their prospective areas.

Thoughts?

 

Terra

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As a musician, I can relate. I am one of those people who studied and practiced and I was good. But there were others who simply were born to play an instrument. No amount of practice could turn me into the type of musician they simply are

I think you're right. For those with a gift, they can move people with words.

But I think it goes deeper than that.

I think there are born nonfiction writers and born fiction writers.

I've been told I have a way of writing and explaining things that makes it clear (and exciting, if that's the objective). It comes easily to me. However, fiction isn't easy for me. I think I do okay with it, but I won't win any prizes, know what I mean? :D 

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37 minutes ago, ShayR said:

As a musician, I can relate. I am one of those people who studied and practiced and I was good. But there were others who simply were born to play an instrument. No amount of practice could turn me into the type of musician they simply are

I think you're right. For those with a gift, they can move people with words.

But I think it goes deeper than that.

I think there are born nonfiction writers and born fiction writers.

I've been told I have a way of writing and explaining things that makes it clear (and exciting, if that's the objective). It comes easily to me. However, fiction isn't easy for me. I think I do okay with it, but I won't win any prizes, know what I mean? :D 

I absolutely understand what you're saying. And I think that their are "gifts" within "gifts."

Take the musician. Some are gifted in classical music, some folk, some blues, etc. That doesn't mean they can't sing or play in other genres, just that their gifting is most pronounced in one above the other.

I believe it is the same with writers. Some are gifted as master story tellers, and within that, there are many different genres the authors seem to shine in. These are novelists. And of course, authoring books isn't the only type of author. There are journalists, advertising copywriters, magazine article writers, poets, script writers, playwrights, etc., each with their own "gifting" in a certain arena of writing.

This doesn't mean they couldn't write in a different arena, just they have a certain strong gifting in one or several even.

And yes, I understand what you mean in your area of gifting and that you are being objective. One has to be able to recognize their gifting arenas to be able to shine in them. One of the reasons the physician from San Diego has me write so much for him is because he thinks I have an innate ability to really break down medical conditions, diseases, injuries, etc. into layman's terms with conceptualizations of everyday normal things making it easy to understand and be entertaining as well.

We have to recognize our strengths and roll with them, right?

 

Terra

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1 minute ago, Terra said:

I absolutely understand what you're saying. And I think that their are "gifts" within "gifts."

Take the musician. Some are gifted in classical music, some folk, some blues, etc. That doesn't mean they can't sing in other genres, just that their gifting is most pronounced in one above the other.

I believe it is the same with writers. Some are gifted as master story tellers, and within that, there are many different genres the authors seem to shine in. These are novelists. And of course, authoring books isn't the only type of author. There are journalists, advertising copywriters, magazine article writers, poets, script writers, playwrights, etc., each with their own "gifting" in a certain arena of writing.

This doesn't mean they couldn't write in a different arena, just they have a certain strong gifting in one or several even.

And yes, I understand what you mean in your area of gifting and are being objective. One has to be able to recognize their gifting arenas to be able to shine in them. One of the reasons the physician from San Diego has me write so much for him is because he thinks I have an innate ability to really break down medical conditions, diseases, injuries, etc. into layman's terms with conceptualizations of everyday normal things making it easy to understand and be entertaining as well.

We have to recognize our strengths and roll with them, right?

 

Terra

Absolutely! :) While I'd love to be a gifted fiction writer, I'm happy with my nonfiction talent and simply write my subpar fiction as a hobby. :D:D 

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12 minutes ago, ShayB said:

Absolutely! :) While I'd love to be a gifted fiction writer, I'm happy with my nonfiction talent and simply write my subpar fiction as a hobby. :D:D 

Ha!

That's why when I write stories, it's for children. I love children and always have. I also love to have fun so it's a good mix. Characters in children's stories don't have to be so complex either. :lol:

 

Terra

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@ Terra

I have always believed that everyone has a gift or two within them.  You can also have a passion within you and have zero skills in it.  But, with enough studying, practice and implementing your learned skills, I do believe the passion shows, close enough to that of someone who was born with those skills. 

My brother-in-law is an art teacher for "troubled" kids.  It's amazing what he can bring out in them!  He can see someone who has no skills, per say, but sees the passion and turns their work into masterpieces.  Him?  He was born with it!  He sees the depth, shadows, colors... everything, that you or I wouldn't "get".  He drew, in colored pencils (that if you brush water on them, turn into water color), a Pegasus.  The detail in the wings alone would bring tears to your eyes.  The man has never been around horses, either.  I could go on and on about him... :wub:

I agree with you, though, that even born with writers can bore the crap out of you!  Sure, it's a masterpiece, but it can, and does, lack passion.  **Think Shakespeare** :lol:  

 

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15 minutes ago, Khemosabi said:

@ Terra

I have always believed that everyone has a gift or two within them.  You can also have a passion within you and have zero skills in it.  But, with enough studying, practice and implementing your learned skills, I do believe the passion shows, close enough to that of someone who was born with those skills. 

My brother-in-law is an art teacher for "troubled" kids.  It's amazing what he can bring out in them!  He can see someone who has no skills, per say, but sees the passion and turns their work into masterpieces.  Him?  He was born with it!  He sees the depth, shadows, colors... everything, that you or I wouldn't "get".  He drew, in colored pencils (that if you brush water on them, turn into water color), a Pegasus.  The detail in the wings alone would bring tears to your eyes.  The man has never been around horses, either.  I could go on and on about him... :wub:

I agree with you, though, that even born with writers can bore the crap out of you!  Sure, it's a masterpiece, but it can, and does, lack passion.  **Think Shakespeare** :lol:  

 

Yes!!

I believe the passion you are talking about is the "emotion" I was referring to earlier. 

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see "passion" without emotion. ;)

 

Terra

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13 minutes ago, Terra said:

Yes!!

I believe the passion you are talking about is the "emotion" I was referring to earlier. 

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see "passion" without emotion. ;)

 

Terra

Okay, I'm having a tough time getting my point(s) across today. 

I was born with writers block.  I'm pretty passionate about finding a solution, because it makes me emotional.

:lol:

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6 minutes ago, Khemosabi said:

Okay, I'm having a tough time getting my point(s) across today. 

I was born with writers block.  I'm pretty passionate about finding a solution, because it makes me emotional.

:lol:

It makes me very emotional that you think you were born with writer's block, so let me get the point across that you already have passionately found a solution. I've read some of your very clever writings.;)

 

Terra

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17 hours ago, Terra said:

 

This is what I equate to a writer who has a way with words, and is educated in writing skills, story composition, etc. They have the best of both worlds.

What I was wondering about in my head, is if emotion has anything to do with it.

I think a born writer has an innate ability to write because emotion is behind their words and they can weave a story drawing the reader in with every word, transferring the emotion behind the story to the reader.

Thoughts?

Terra

No. It's not emotion.  A good writer can convey emotion - but it's not their emotional disposition that makes them a writer.  It's  not someone's emotional disposition that makes them an artist or a musician.  Being able to convey an emotion is not dependent on, nor determined by, feeling an emotion. 

4 hours ago, Terra said:

Yes!!

I believe the passion you are talking about is the "emotion" I was referring to earlier. 

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see "passion" without emotion. ;)

 

Terra

Passion for something doesn't make you innately talented in it. Passion, as it pertains to the creative talents,  is the interest and drive. It can be very non-emotional. However, you can do work that is also driven by emotion.  A "passionate" writer can sit down write something that they could care less about (and many have for cash exchange when they have to). Of course, when they work on their own, they work on things that actually move them, but emotion is not a necessity.  

4 hours ago, Khemosabi said:

Okay, I'm having a tough time getting my point(s) across today. 

I was born with writers block.  I'm pretty passionate about finding a solution, because it makes me emotional.

:lol:

LMAO.  That's how I am with drawing.  My sister is an artist and can draw.  I don't get it. I know the principles, so forth -- but I don't "get" it and there's nothing that will ever change that. 

The creative talents aren't all that completely understood. There's really no explanation outside of metaphysics for why some people have a knack for one area of creativity and are blank on others. While education is usually needed to some extent unless you are fortunate enough to be an actual savant, if you don't have the natural ability, you'll probably never be any better than mediocre at something. 

It's not just art, music, and writing, either.  Have you ever seen someone in a kitchen that can just throw things together blindly and end up with delicious food?  What about the person that has an idea for an outfit they want, so they just sit down and sew it, and it's fabulous.  Then there's the dude we rarely think about who made that first computer board. Or the biologist/chemist that made that first aspirin, or the first car.  

When people think of creative talent, they often wrongfully think of only the fine arts.  People are naturally creative beings. It's  hard to find people who have absolutely no creative outlets. It also follows that not all things created takes education. It also follows that, that there are things that you will never create without some formal education. From that it also follows that there will be people who excel and people who will always be mediocre at best.  

Then if you ever teach in any of the fine arts, you'll find people that are passionate and feel they are naturally talented only to be completely stunned when they go for a professional review - (to put a painting in a gallery, to publish a book, to a music producer) just to be rejected and told they have "potential" but need to take some classes to hone their skills. 

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8 minutes ago, HeySal said:

No. It's not emotion.  A good writer can convey emotion - but it's not their emotional disposition that makes them a writer.  It's  not someone's emotional disposition that makes them an artist or a musician.  Being able to convey an emotion is not dependent on, nor determined by, feeling an emotion. 

You missed my point. I wasn't saying a writer has to be an emotional person or as you put it, have an emotional disposition, but they have a grasp on what emotions are, therefore can evoke them.

And I don't agree with being able to convey emotion isn't dependant upon feeling an emotion. How can one convey happiness if they've never been happy? How can one convey torment if they have never felt tormented? As a matter of fact, I think writers who are superstars in their genres are because of what they have experienced and felt and therefore are able to convey those things so well to their readers.

Can a person write about happiness from seeing it in others? Sure, but those who have been elated and deliriously joyful are able to convey it much better. 

19 minutes ago, HeySal said:

Passion for something doesn't make you innately talented in it. Passion, as it pertains to the creative talents,  is the interest and drive. It can be very non-emotional. However, you can do work that is also driven by emotion.  A "passionate" writer can sit down write something that they could care less about (and many have for cash exchange when they have to). Of course, when they work on their own, they work on things that actually move them, but emotion is not a necessity.  

Again, you misunderstood what I was saying. I didn't say being passionate for something makes you innately talented in it. I have a passion for helping wounded animals, but a veterinarian, I'm not. I don't know every ailment an animal may have or know the name of every bone in their body, but I still am passionate in trying to nurse them back to health.

I'm passionate about creating flower beds and walking gardens, but a horticulturalist, I'm not. I can't grow some of the more difficult flowers like say orchids, but that doesn't make me any less passionate about flower gardening. ;)

 

Terra

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16 minutes ago, Terra said:

You missed my point. I wasn't saying a writer has to be an emotional person or as you put it, have an emotional disposition, but they have a grasp on what emotions are, therefore can evoke them.

And I don't agree with being able to convey emotion isn't dependant upon feeling an emotion. How can one convey happiness if they've never been happy? How can one convey torment if they have never felt tormented? As a matter of fact, I think writers who are superstars in their genres are because of what they have experienced and felt and therefore are able to convey those things so well to their readers.

Can a person write about happiness from seeing it in others? Sure, but those who have been elated and deliriously joyful are able to convey it much better. 

Knowing what an emotion feels like, and feeling it when you are conveying it is two different things. Emotions are instinctive and even a sociopath can feel them - they just have a very odd spin on them. Emotion is actually attached to survival instinct in the subconscious brain wiring.  So discussion of emotion and writing to me is kinda a moot point.  Of course, you have to know them to convey them.

How do you experience the vast array of emotions?  Life experience.  You'll find that a most, if not all, of the best writers are those with the widest range of interests and life experiences.  Emotion itself can actually hinder a writer.  Look at Vonnegut. His experience of being an underground prisoner in Dresden, then being brought above ground and seeing the carnage kept him from being able to write for two decades. He had to be able to distance himself from those emotions to do the intellectual work it takes to write. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, HeySal said:

Knowing what an emotion feels like, and feeling it when you are conveying it is two different things.

Absolutely correct.

 

1 hour ago, HeySal said:

Emotions are instinctive and even a sociopath can feel them - they just have a very odd spin on them. Emotion is actually attached to survival instinct in the subconscious brain wiring.  So discussion of emotion and writing to me is kinda a moot point.

Why did you just bring it up then? :blink:

 

1 hour ago, HeySal said:

How do you experience the vast array of emotions?  Life experience.  You'll find that a most, if not all, of the best writers are those with the widest range of interests and life experiences.

Also correct.

1 hour ago, HeySal said:

Emotion itself can actually hinder a writer.  Look at Vonnegut. His experience of being an underground prisoner in Dresden, then being brought above ground and seeing the carnage kept him from being able to write for two decades. He had to be able to distance himself from those emotions to do the intellectual work it takes to write. 

"Can" being the operative word here.

There are other writers who excelled because of emotions. Negative emotions, that may be, but emotions, nonetheless. For instance a lot of great authors suffer depression and although depression isn't an emotion itself it does carry emotions with it, or have emotional symptoms like sadness, emptiness, hopelessness and a numbness, feeling guilty and worthless. Many a fantastic piece was written out of these feelings from authors who suffered them from Edgar Allan Poe, to Mark Twain, to Tennessee Williams, to Sylvia Plath, to Emily Dickinson, Stephen King, Anne Rice, David Foster Wallace, and even J.K. Rowling.

Ha! Never knew this would turn into a short lesson on the emotions or lack thereof of authors, haha! :lol:

Terra

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16 minutes ago, Terra said:

Why did you just bring it up then? :blink:

Really? I read your posts. 

17 minutes ago, Terra said:

"Can" being the operative word here.

Not at all. You can't write about an emotion until you intellectualize it.  Writers, no matter what their emotional disposition, aren't writing from the emotion.  They are writing from the intellectualization of the emotion. If you are writing emotionally, it doesn't produce fine literature. The intellectualization of the emotion does. Simple cognitive science. 

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17 hours ago, HeySal said:

 Writers, no matter what their emotional disposition, aren't writing from the emotion.

We've already determined that. ;)

 

17 hours ago, HeySal said:

You can't write about an emotion until you intellectualize it

You do know that in psychology, intellectualization is a defense mechanism where logic is used to block confrontation with an unconscious conflict or wrestling and its associated emotional stress. Right? It’s where thinking is used to avoid feeling. It involves removing one's self, emotionally, from a stressful event.

So when a writer is writing fiction and isn't in an unconscious conflict, or in a stressful situation avoiding feelings, there's no need to intellectualize anything.

Simple psychology. :) And of course it depends on what genre you're writing in. I can attest there are no emotions involved scientific research papers whatever the topic.

Anyway, I'm quite confident that people who are born writers, those that just have a way with words don't break it all down to a science. They just do it because they are good at it and enjoy it. ;)

 

 

Terra

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15 hours ago, Terra said:

We've already determined that. ;)

 

You do know that in psychology, intellectualization is a defense mechanism where logic is used to block confrontation with an unconscious conflict or wrestling and its associated emotional stress. Right? It’s where thinking is used to avoid feeling. It involves removing one's self, emotionally, from a stressful event.

So when a writer is writing fiction and isn't in an unconscious conflict, or in a stressful situation avoiding feelings, there's no need to intellectualize anything.

Simple psychology. :) And of course it depends on what genre you're writing in. I can attest there are no emotions involved scientific research papers whatever the topic.

Anyway, I'm quite confident that people who are born writers, those that just have a way with words don't break it all down to a science. They just do it because they are good at it and enjoy it. ;)

 

 

Terra

I didn't study psychology.  I studied cognitive science.  And yes - some people write to clear up some issues of their own they are having.  That is how some people intellectualize so they can process things better.  Not all people do, but some do. 

I'm just giving you the point of view from cognitive science. If you don't feel comfortable with it or that it's not right - I'm not the one you have the beef with.  Just because writers don't break down what they do to a science doesn't mean that scientists don't.  I was just responding to the suppositions in the posts from the science.  Don't feel like arguing about pseudo-sciences or "feelz".  There was conjecture going on so just imparted what I knew from the science for people to ponder on. 

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15 minutes ago, HeySal said:

I didn't study psychology.  I studied cognitive science.  And yes - some people write to clear up some issues of their own they are having.  That is how some people intellectualize so they can process things better.  Not all people do, but some do. 

I'm just giving you the point of view from cognitive science. If you don't feel comfortable with it or that it's not right - I'm not the one you have the beef with.  Just because writers don't break down what they do to a science doesn't mean that scientists don't.  I was just responding to the suppositions in the posts from the science.  Don't feel like arguing about pseudo-sciences or "feelz".  There was conjecture going on so just imparted what I knew from the science for people to ponder on. 

I get that.

I don't have a beef with anyone. I was just making the point that many writers do come from the side of writing from emotional experiences. Again it comes down to what is being written about, subject matter, fiction versus non-fiction and the tone the author chose to write in.

There have been many stoic writers devoid of any feelings at all. I have a tendency not to read them though unless I use them for a sleep aid, lol!

Anyway, the topic was born writers versus people who can write well. I do believe there are people just born with the gift of writing, and oft times it is accompanied by the gift of gab, haha!  :lol:

 

Terra

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Thing I always wanna do with WRITER is drop in sum other -ER, see if stuff still plays true.

Potential. Environment. Diligence.

That is sum 3-way flux, open to all.

Any -ERer.

Potential, cos when sum baby looks up atchya, it is a crisp trusta all possibility they got shinin' out.

Environment, cos like William Carlos Williams said — "no ideas but in things".

An' diligence, I guess, cos there is forever gonna be a mismatch between emergence an permanence — brightest space between eyeball an' eyeball we all gotta work at to see eye to eye.

An' mebbe -ERa writecraft is wantin' to get close to summa that — cosya kinda gotta, orya kinda wanna, orya kinda happenta be sumplace cansum.

I would always wanna make max sense outta shit is happnin' out there, an' by meansa whatever I got in my locker, shape it selflessly true enoughta wax communal on hearts an' minds.

Problem is, mosta the time I am fulla schwango.

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I've been a college writing teacher and also led writers' workshops independently for 10-15 years, and I can tell you that it was near impossible to tell at the beginning of a class which students would be the best writers at the end of a class.

Some people may seem to have a talent for words but they don't take instruction/feedback well and didn't grow at all from assignment #1 to assignment #10.  Others may seem to have a halting command of the English language but by the end of the class, they are writing sensitive, eloquent and sophisticated essays or articles.

I once had a student who was the daughter of a well-known novelist and later became a novelist herself.  I told her (diplomatically, with constructive suggestions) that she was lazy in her writing (which I still believe, based on ample evidence) and she was totally unreceptive to feedback.  She was one of the worst performing students in her cohort.

In short, there may be native talent but that doesn't mean it is going to be well executed.

Marcia Yudkin

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5 hours ago, marciayudkin said:

I've been a college writing teacher and also led writers' workshops independently for 10-15 years, and I can tell you that it was near impossible to tell at the beginning of a class which students would be the best writers at the end of a class.

Some people may seem to have a talent for words but they don't take instruction/feedback well and didn't grow at all from assignment #1 to assignment #10.  Others may seem to have a halting command of the English language but by the end of the class, they are writing sensitive, eloquent and sophisticated essays or articles.

I once had a student who was the daughter of a well-known novelist and later became a novelist herself.  I told her (diplomatically, with constructive suggestions) that she was lazy in her writing (which I still believe, based on ample evidence) and she was totally unreceptive to feedback.  She was one of the worst performing students in her cohort.

In short, there may be native talent but that doesn't mean it is going to be well executed.

Marcia Yudkin

I do find the arts funny that way.

When I taught drama, there were some exceptionally talented actors and actresses who would not take instruction at all and never improved while some of the clumsiest students in the beginning of the class, took instruction, applied it and ended up being the stars at the end of the class giving outstanding performances and outshining some of those who showed the most promise in the beginning.

For some reason, some of those who had raw talent thought they had arrived a long time ago and were too egotistical to see they could improve themselves. :wacko:

 

Terra

 

 

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22 hours ago, Terra said:

I get that.

I don't have a beef with anyone. I was just making the point that many writers do come from the side of writing from emotional experiences. Again it comes down to what is being written about, subject matter, fiction versus non-fiction and the tone the author chose to write in.

There have been many stoic writers devoid of any feelings at all. I have a tendency not to read them though unless I use them for a sleep aid, lol!

Anyway, the topic was born writers versus people who can write well. I do believe there are people just born with the gift of writing, and oft times it is accompanied by the gift of gab, haha!  :lol:

 

Terra

Okay - I "get" that. All except - you aren't always going to know if the person writing was a stoic or  not.  Some writing is boring - but that comes from people who are just "almost" there but not quite. You to have to feel a thing to trigger someone. Psychotics are expert at it and words can do some funny things. 

As far as some people being "naturals". Yep. Not only writers, but all other fields, too. 

13 hours ago, marciayudkin said:

I've been a college writing teacher and also led writers' workshops independently for 10-15 years, and I can tell you that it was near impossible to tell at the beginning of a class which students would be the best writers at the end of a class.

Some people may seem to have a talent for words but they don't take instruction/feedback well and didn't grow at all from assignment #1 to assignment #10.  Others may seem to have a halting command of the English language but by the end of the class, they are writing sensitive, eloquent and sophisticated essays or articles.

I once had a student who was the daughter of a well-known novelist and later became a novelist herself.  I told her (diplomatically, with constructive suggestions) that she was lazy in her writing (which I still believe, based on ample evidence) and she was totally unreceptive to feedback.  She was one of the worst performing students in her cohort.

In short, there may be native talent but that doesn't mean it is going to be well executed.

Marcia Yudkin

10 - 15  years? Holy cow. You have nerves of steel.  I only lasted a year.......but then, I moved west and no telling how long I would have stayed if I'd remained in the area.  I was already fed up, though.  Of course, I was at the junior college level and not the 4 yr University level and there is a difference there.  Students can be absolutely impossible, though.  I had a Mexican woman in general English class - she refused to use articles because they weren't in her language. Had one in a speech class that couldn't get in front of people - she'd either faint or be out the door to go vomit.  

And then there were the writing students..................LOL.    

For those who have never taught a fine art......imagine the tryouts for American Idol when the person is almost painful to listen to yet completely shocked when they are told they need to find a different field. 

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